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Post by thedarkwhite on Feb 12, 2015 2:22:17 GMT
Swallowcide is just about the funnest shit ever. For Kirby, who's been nerfed to the fucking shadow realm in Melee, to have one gimmicky way to murder characters on the opposite end of the tier spectrum is great. I can't imagine why someone wouldn't want him to have that option, especially in a game that's going to be all about hyped-up OP bullshit, and I want to make sure this is magnified in Melee-.
I have two general suggestions. One, increase the range & speed of neutral B. I think the range should at least be increased to something representative of the wind-vacuum animation instead of its pitiful current range; decreasing start-up frames + making the first active frame earlier would help as well. Two, Kirby should be able to down-B with the opponent inside of him, forcing a murder-suicide (Kirby's advantage, of course). The opponent should have until down-B's start-up is finished (whatever it gets adjusted to) until they can no longer mash out of being swallowed. (If Kirby tries this shit on stage it should just be a way for him to time-out the opponent with literally no effort other than taking first stock.)
I like both combined. One of the fantasies we all have about Kirby is using him to kick the shit out of someone infinitely more broken by subverting the intent of his most fitting attack. That's why I also think the inhale should be ~2-3x more difficult to mash out of, spit should shoot (at least) twice (or half) as far, and he should be able to turn around mid-suck. I want getting inhaled to be as feared as getting grabbed by ICs. I want there to be a Pavlovian connection between the cute Kirby sucking sound effect and pure, unadulterated terror. I want people watching streams to see Kirby get an inhale on the last stock against their favorite player and just close the tab.
idk, I just don't think swallowcide should be so weak. It limits us and forces us to be such scrubs when Kirby could be SO fucking dank. I just hope everyone else is OP enough that this bullshit is balanced.
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Post by articanus on Feb 14, 2015 3:35:14 GMT
Obviously this is the antithesis of my thread titled "removal of swallowciding" so I thought it would be appropriate that I would be the first to respond here.
First off, let me tell you that I have experience with a broken kirby in a broken meta with a broken swallowcide in the early days of brawl minus. The one you download now doesn't even remotely compare to the bullshit exhibited in a day where down tilt autocomboed fullstage into f smash and your neutral B either shield broke you or grabbed you from 3/4ths of final destination away. Why even bring it up? From experience, a Kirby should not have both a good swallowcide and a good kit surrounding it. Balancing the character becomes muddy because we don't know exactly which aspect is tipping over the edge, and because no one seems to be against swallowciding we end up making Kirby shit, which isn't fun.
"Swallowcide is just about the funnest shit ever." Sure the first time. What about the 2141624162th time?
"For Kirby, who's been nerfed to the fucking shadow realm in Melee, to have one gimmicky way to murder characters on the opposite end of the tier spectrum is great." So we should make kirby bad so he has only a gimmicky tool available to handle good characters? Why not make Kirby, I dunno, a good character? Why keep swallowciding if it's the only thing between a great kirby and an ok kirby?
" I can't imagine why someone wouldn't want him to have that option, especially in a game that's going to be all about hyped-up OP bullshit, and I want to make sure this is magnified in Melee-." You got me here, it is BS and melee- should be about BS. However, BS should be fun to a degree and having swallowciding being a valid(much less a mandatory, from what your suggesting) option removes not only the depth of the character but makes the game... well... not fun.
"idk, I just don't think swallowcide should be so weak. It limits us and forces us to be such scrubs when Kirby could be SO fucking dank. I just hope everyone else is OP enough that this bullshit is balanced." It's the opposite, having swallowciding is limiting us not only in terms of how strong kirby gets to be in the overall neutral game, but also how "dank" we can make his absorbtion powers? Imagine if he swallows Mewtwo and baby shadow balls pull the enemy into kirby, but the big one is even wavier and crazier than mewtwo's himself? Seems much more appealing to me than "lol sucked you up, I win"
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Post by thedarkwhite on Mar 11, 2015 0:19:38 GMT
lol. Bla bla brall meenis waah waah waaaaaaah!!!!!!!! Your PTSD is irrelevant. Idk. How fun is Marth's dunk when you get a low-percent gimp the 2,141,624,162nd time? Obviously I won't be alive to really do anything that many times, but I'd say it's boneriffic. Seriously. It's just incredibly rewarding. Oh? Well how about tipper fsmash? Come on man, that's a low blow. my b. But peep dis: I've never been a Fox main, but I can't imagine shinespikes getting old, and I don't play Falco, but I don't see dair becoming boring, and I don't play Falcon but I'd literally kill myself if they took Falcon Paunch away, and I swear to god if you remove wobbling or level 9 hammers or death by monkey or eggicides or Gannon's axplosion kick, I. SWEAR. TO. GOD.But for all the extremely limiting, nigh-inescapable kill options various mid- and high-tier characters have (which, by the way, seem to have made it awfully far without being totally banned [shoutouts to wobbling for returning from the grave {AYYO, AZ 2 GOOD! WOBBLES S.T.D.!!!}, RIP.I.P. infinite ledgestalling] and awfully high on the dank-o-meter for such limiting, unfun options), and the relative difficulty of utilizing those options, you'd think you wouldn't want to remove the one such option bequeathed to the shittiest character in the whole fucking game, wouldn't you? Oh, wait, I forgot. You would. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to bring that up again. Seriously. If you want "good character" Kirby, go play SD Remix. If you want Hitokiri Kuishinbo, play Melee-. ...actually, I think it would be really funny to make Kirby based entirely around swallowciding and swallow-based combos. Wouldn't that make him a great Kirby? He might even be the best. How will you ever recover?(User was banned for this post (dont be a dick / unconstructive to conversation - scrumpy)) |
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Post by articanus on Mar 11, 2015 23:06:33 GMT
Congrats on making me google PTSD because I didn't know what it meant off hand. Kudos, would get trolled again.
In the case of Marth specific examples to being repetitive, I'd like to state that those take some established set-up(whether it be a previous move to put them off-stage[which has to be further set up by proper positioning] or by an understanding of the opponent's movement in the neutral) rather than a case where you can go "hmmmm I'm losing, time to go for it" while you are being edgeguarded. Even in a game based on BS we should advocate that the better player should win, and that works against it. Getting gimped or tipper Fsmashed by marth or shine spiked by fox or daired by falco or even falcon punched by Falcon are all results of being outplayed in one way or another, Kirbyciding / wobbling/ jigglypuffs rest(under most situations)/ ganondorf and bowser's suicides in brawl/ PM/ sm4sh are all general results of the opponent messing up. A good example of messing up in stupid situations and getting severily punished for it is the ever famous sakurai combo from Fox/ Falco, where they manage to accidentally hit you with an up b and get the advantage on-stage for doing so. Up B to uair happens to and can kill you. I don't advocate any of these and would like them all removed to put more hands in players during neutral situations, pressing your advantage when you are ahead, or even getting out of a bad situation and forcing it to neutral. I don't like being in a bad situation and then getting a kill for it.
In the case of eggcides it's tricky because at least the Yoshi has to time it. It's also almost impossible to not outspace ganondorfs down B so that is a relatively trivial example.
Swallow based gameplay sounds super awesome, btw. I actually like the idea of Kirby having a 5 frame grab(two frames faster than any standard grab) that has generally more range than standard grabs and can be utilized in the air and on the ground. He can get auto-combos out of it, combo into it, I don't really care. But leaving in kirbyciding means he gets to use it willy nilly off stage to recover and if he gets it.... he wins. If he doesn't then we have to put significant lag on it to make it equally punishing. At least jigg's rest has that.
I'll also take a moment to say that I responded in the most friendly way possible. If enough people disagree with me then whatever, and god forbid if Scrumpy does. Then I really have no say. But I think we both as people should be allowed to put out our opinions, and I wouldn't mind if you responded in a much more constructive way. It is the internet though, obviously asking too much.
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Poast
Posts: 42 
Melee Main: 
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Post by Poast on Mar 13, 2015 4:10:45 GMT
Congrats on making me google PTSD because I didn't know what it meant off hand. Kudos, would get trolled again. In the case of Marth specific examples to being repetitive, I'd like to state that those take some established set-up(whether it be a previous move to put them off-stage[which has to be further set up by proper positioning] or by an understanding of the opponent's movement in the neutral) rather than a case where you can go "hmmmm I'm losing, time to go for it" while you are being edgeguarded. Even in a game based on BS we should advocate that the better player should win, and that works against it. Getting gimped or tipper Fsmashed by marth or shine spiked by fox or daired by falco or even falcon punched by Falcon are all results of being outplayed in one way or another, Kirbyciding / wobbling/ jigglypuffs rest(under most situations)/ ganondorf and bowser's suicides in brawl/ PM/ sm4sh are all general results of the opponent messing up. A good example of messing up in stupid situations and getting severily punished for it is the ever famous sakurai combo from Fox/ Falco, where they manage to accidentally hit you with an up b and get the advantage on-stage for doing so. Up B to uair happens to and can kill you. I don't advocate any of these and would like them all removed to put more hands in players during neutral situations, pressing your advantage when you are ahead, or even getting out of a bad situation and forcing it to neutral. I don't like being in a bad situation and then getting a kill for it. In the case of eggcides it's tricky because at least the Yoshi has to time it. It's also almost impossible to not outspace ganondorfs down B so that is a relatively trivial example. Swallow based gameplay sounds super awesome, btw. I actually like the idea of Kirby having a 5 frame grab(two frames faster than any standard grab) that has generally more range than standard grabs and can be utilized in the air and on the ground. He can get auto-combos out of it, combo into it, I don't really care. But leaving in kirbyciding means he gets to use it willy nilly off stage to recover and if he gets it.... he wins. If he doesn't then we have to put significant lag on it to make it equally punishing. At least jigg's rest has that. I'll also take a moment to say that I responded in the most friendly way possible. If enough people disagree with me then whatever, and god forbid if Scrumpy does. Then I really have no say. But I think we both as people should be allowed to put out our opinions, and I wouldn't mind if you responded in a much more constructive way. It is the internet though, obviously asking too much. tldr Brasil |
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Post by Tatatat on May 11, 2015 5:50:52 GMT
Well I made a kirby similar to your specifications [here]
That is how stupidly overpowered and unfun to play against the kirby you describe. |
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