Post by Tatatat on May 16, 2015 21:26:57 GMT
It is a general consensus in melee that Marth is better than Roy, but why? Roy has overall less killing power, is more susceptible to combos, can't gimp efficiently, a horrible recovery, generally laggier moves, worse wavedash, and shorter grab range. However, Roy does have some advantages that Marth doesn't have. Fox has a harder time waveshining him due to him having a weight of 85 compared to marth's 87 and he has one of the best SHFFL in the game. These advantages don't even come close to outweighing his problems. I suggest a complete overhaul of his hitboxes/hitbox placement and physics. Now about hitbox placement, Hitboxes are arranged in Hitbox ID's. If a two hitboxes connect, the one with the lower hitbox id is the hitbox that is used. This is why Melee marth's tipper and brawl/sm4sh marth's tipper are completely different. Melee Marth's tipper has a hitbox ID of 0 while Brawl Marth's has an ID of 3. Another useful thing about hit-boxes in smash is interframe space stretching. Hitboxes occupy not only the space they currently are, but also the space they were in a frame before and any space inbetween. This was most likely to prevent high speed projectiles from not detecting collision. This however is not the case with hurtboxes as Fox in Fox Illusion can only be hit at certain points.
This is Roy's current hitbox placement.
This is Roy's new Hitbox placement.
Notice how there isn't a hitbox inside his body. Hitbox 3 of the original hitbox placement was nearly useless. I also reorganized the stack to make it more practical for my next changes about the actual hitboxes. The hitbox's placement in the F-smash pictured is:
Hitbox 4: Size:830 Y-offset:0 X-offset:180 Z-offset:1660 Bone:78
Hitbox 3: Size:800 Y-offset:0 X-offset:-110 Z-offset:790 Bone:78
Hitbox 2: Size:750 Y-offset:0 X-offset:-80 Z-offset:-375 Bone:78
Hitbox 1: Size:800 Y-offset:0 X-offset:0 Z-offset:0 Bone:73
I gave the Hitboxes x-offsets to counter the size nerf to allow 3 hitboxes on the blade.
Now about the hitboxes themselves. I am proposing the following changes:
Hitbox 1:
Dmg:1.75x
BKB:1.45x
KBG:1.3x
Flame effect
Hitbox 2:
Dmg:
.8x
BKB:
.8x
KBG:
.8x
Slash Effect
Hitbox 3:
Dmg:1.5x
BKB:
1.22x
KBG:1.15x
Slash Effect
Hitbox 4:
Dmg:
.45x
BKB:
.4x
KBG:
.66x
Normal Effect
These changes are based on original Marth's untipped attacks. If he has any difference in values between untipped attacks (Example: U-air) take the average of the highest and second highest values for the value to be modified. All numbers are rounded to the nearest Number. If a number is .50 it is rounded up.
The exceptions to these rules are:
F-smash hitbox 1:
Trajectory:35
F-smash Hitbox 4:
Trajectory:300
Effect: Cape
Dair Hitbox 1:
Trajectory: 290
Dair Hitbox 2:
Trajectory: 270
Dair Hitbox 3:
Trajectory: 290
Dair Hitbox 4:
Trajectory: 180
Fair Hitbox 4:
Trajectory 67
Notes: I know that these modifiers make them stronger than marth's tippers. Roy's tippers require more precision to hit with due to a few things. Hitbox 2 is not a tipper, meaning if both hitbox 2 and 3 connect, it will not count as a tipper. Roy's overall hitbox sizes have been reduced. I also made these modifiers with the assumption that Marth would be buffed in some way in M-.
I have already mapped out the changes in a excel sheet here:
marth to M- Roy.xlsx (13.04 KB)
Other changes I suggest:
Double jump maximum horizontal momentum multiplier?? of 1.15. (Double Jump Momentum is directly below Air Jump Multiplier in Crazyhand. It is marked as
? [Do not modify]. This warning is pointless and does not harm the game. The higher this stat is the more momentum the character can get from a double jump. I do not know if this value is tied to another value. I only know its general effects)
Ground to airjump momentum multiplier of .8 -> .82
Jump V initial velocity:2.4 -> 2.6
Max aerial H Velocity: .9 -> .95
Shield Size: 11.75 -> 11.68
Friction .06 -> .052
Any moves that have a higher end lag or landing lag than Marth's equivalent be reduced to half way inbetween the two. Unless the difference between the two is one, in which case it would be changed to Marth's lag.
Up-B aerial jump height ratio 1.1 -> 1.25
Up-B gravity after use 0.06 -> 0.02
Up-B landing lag 30 -> 32
Up-B max fall speed 1.8 -> 1.83
Side-B aerial horizontal deceleration 0.08 -> 0.075
Side-B aerial vertical boost 1.2 -> 1.25
Side-B gravity 1.8 -> 1.85
Roy's New hitboxes:
I have finally finished Roy's hitboxes, I decided against making new hitboxes for F-tilt, D-smash, and U-smash. To fix the SDI problem for U-smash I have lowered the damage and knockback of the Multi-hitting part to make each hit only give 4 frames of hitlag. In return I gave the final hit +4 damage.
Hitboxes:
Bair:
Fair:
For his fair I made his hitbox last 2 frames longer so it can hit below him like this.
Uair:
Nair:
Dair:
Dtilt:
For d-tilt I made Hitbox 4 a spike.
Utilt:
During a one frame of utilt A very strange thing happens that I can not explain. Here it is
F-smash:
N-special:
I honestly don't think Roy's N-special should be called shield breaker anymore. I completely removed its shield breaking properties and made it charge in 60 frame for 20 damage fully charged. His charging animation and aerial animations are the same but on the ground his swinging animation has been changed to u-smash.
Charged:
Uncharged:
By doing this change in ground swinging animation I have inadvertently created a new tech for Roy. If you swing with N-special in the air and land while his hitboxes are out his animation will change to that of U-smash. Due to interframe stretching this will cover the complete distance between the two like so
This tech requires stringent timing and is most likely situational because of its difficulty in execution. Nevertheless the applications of this tech may be very interesting.
Update: I've now made it possible to do out a SH frame perfect. You must input it the frame your are counted as jumping. I've also now made Roy's Up-special a spike with a trajectory of 250 degrees. I've also now fixed Roy's dash attack so its hitboxes stay out as long as its animation makes it seem.
If you actually read all of this could you please give your opinion on my changes? I have the download of the current version at the end of this post and would really appreciate it if someone else were to play-test it.
This is Roy's current hitbox placement.
This is Roy's new Hitbox placement.
Notice how there isn't a hitbox inside his body. Hitbox 3 of the original hitbox placement was nearly useless. I also reorganized the stack to make it more practical for my next changes about the actual hitboxes. The hitbox's placement in the F-smash pictured is:
Hitbox 4: Size:830 Y-offset:0 X-offset:180 Z-offset:1660 Bone:78
Hitbox 3: Size:800 Y-offset:0 X-offset:-110 Z-offset:790 Bone:78
Hitbox 2: Size:750 Y-offset:0 X-offset:-80 Z-offset:-375 Bone:78
Hitbox 1: Size:800 Y-offset:0 X-offset:0 Z-offset:0 Bone:73
I gave the Hitboxes x-offsets to counter the size nerf to allow 3 hitboxes on the blade.
Now about the hitboxes themselves. I am proposing the following changes:
Hitbox 1:
Dmg:1.75x
BKB:1.45x
KBG:1.3x
Flame effect
Hitbox 2:
Dmg:
.8x
BKB:
.8x
KBG:
.8x
Slash Effect
Hitbox 3:
Dmg:1.5x
BKB:
1.22x
KBG:1.15x
Slash Effect
Hitbox 4:
Dmg:
.45x
BKB:
.4x
KBG:
.66x
Normal Effect
These changes are based on original Marth's untipped attacks. If he has any difference in values between untipped attacks (Example: U-air) take the average of the highest and second highest values for the value to be modified. All numbers are rounded to the nearest Number. If a number is .50 it is rounded up.
The exceptions to these rules are:
F-smash hitbox 1:
Trajectory:35
F-smash Hitbox 4:
Trajectory:300
Effect: Cape
Dair Hitbox 1:
Trajectory: 290
Dair Hitbox 2:
Trajectory: 270
Dair Hitbox 3:
Trajectory: 290
Dair Hitbox 4:
Trajectory: 180
Fair Hitbox 4:
Trajectory 67
Notes: I know that these modifiers make them stronger than marth's tippers. Roy's tippers require more precision to hit with due to a few things. Hitbox 2 is not a tipper, meaning if both hitbox 2 and 3 connect, it will not count as a tipper. Roy's overall hitbox sizes have been reduced. I also made these modifiers with the assumption that Marth would be buffed in some way in M-.
I have already mapped out the changes in a excel sheet here:
marth to M- Roy.xlsx (13.04 KB)
Other changes I suggest:
Double jump maximum horizontal momentum multiplier?? of 1.15. (Double Jump Momentum is directly below Air Jump Multiplier in Crazyhand. It is marked as
? [Do not modify]. This warning is pointless and does not harm the game. The higher this stat is the more momentum the character can get from a double jump. I do not know if this value is tied to another value. I only know its general effects)Ground to airjump momentum multiplier of .8 -> .82
Jump V initial velocity:2.4 -> 2.6
Max aerial H Velocity: .9 -> .95
Shield Size: 11.75 -> 11.68
Friction .06 -> .052
Any moves that have a higher end lag or landing lag than Marth's equivalent be reduced to half way inbetween the two. Unless the difference between the two is one, in which case it would be changed to Marth's lag.
Up-B aerial jump height ratio 1.1 -> 1.25
Up-B gravity after use 0.06 -> 0.02
Up-B landing lag 30 -> 32
Up-B max fall speed 1.8 -> 1.83
Side-B aerial horizontal deceleration 0.08 -> 0.075
Side-B aerial vertical boost 1.2 -> 1.25
Side-B gravity 1.8 -> 1.85
Roy's New hitboxes:
I have finally finished Roy's hitboxes, I decided against making new hitboxes for F-tilt, D-smash, and U-smash. To fix the SDI problem for U-smash I have lowered the damage and knockback of the Multi-hitting part to make each hit only give 4 frames of hitlag. In return I gave the final hit +4 damage.
Hitboxes:
Bair:
Fair:
For his fair I made his hitbox last 2 frames longer so it can hit below him like this.
Uair:
Nair:
Dair:
Dtilt:
For d-tilt I made Hitbox 4 a spike.
Utilt:
During a one frame of utilt A very strange thing happens that I can not explain. Here it is
F-smash:
N-special:
I honestly don't think Roy's N-special should be called shield breaker anymore. I completely removed its shield breaking properties and made it charge in 60 frame for 20 damage fully charged. His charging animation and aerial animations are the same but on the ground his swinging animation has been changed to u-smash.
Charged:
Uncharged:
By doing this change in ground swinging animation I have inadvertently created a new tech for Roy. If you swing with N-special in the air and land while his hitboxes are out his animation will change to that of U-smash. Due to interframe stretching this will cover the complete distance between the two like so
This tech requires stringent timing and is most likely situational because of its difficulty in execution. Nevertheless the applications of this tech may be very interesting.
Update: I've now made it possible to do out a SH frame perfect. You must input it the frame your are counted as jumping. I've also now made Roy's Up-special a spike with a trajectory of 250 degrees. I've also now fixed Roy's dash attack so its hitboxes stay out as long as its animation makes it seem.
If you actually read all of this could you please give your opinion on my changes? I have the download of the current version at the end of this post and would really appreciate it if someone else were to play-test it.